Intersectionality - the advanced version

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Akshay S Dinesh

13 Mar 2023, 01:27:1413/03/2023
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Hi friends, one of the first few words that were creating difficulty in the annual meeting was "intersectionality". There was an attempt by Neha to explain it using the allegory of a road junction to explain how vulnerabilities along multiple dimensions can superimpose on each other as they intersect. There was Rajeev who used the example of a Dalit-Muslim trans woman being more oppressed than a gay man.

There was also the point raised at the feedback session that we were talking too much basics and not 'advanced' concepts (Nilesh shared the examples of intergenerational trauma, cultural capital).

I think intersectionality has an advanced version too. I'll try to describe it through my lived experience, but before that I will quote from the writing of an anonymous author who has experienced the oppressive side of intersectionality. The article titled "What’s intersectionality? Textbook speak explained, using lived experiences" is at https://blog.ymcagta.org/blog/2020/07/03/whats-intersectionality-textbook-speak-explained-using-lived-experiences/

I want to quote the entire article, but it would be more appropriate if you visit the link directly and read it fully. But I definitely want you to read:

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> If you look it up in the dictionary, you’ll see intersectionality defined as: “the complex, cumulative way in which the effects of multiple forms of discrimination (such as racism, sexism, and classism) combine, overlap, or intersect especially in the experiences of marginalized individuals or groups.”

> For me, no dictionary definition can capture the complexity of intersectionality. For me, intersectionality is defined by how individuals experience their unique relationships with discrimination. It’s about a variety of social and political factors and how they overlap to shape your personal experiences

> Lots of people have criticized the concept of intersectionality. You might have heard jeers about “the oppression Olympics” — which showcases how misunderstood the concept is. Intersectionality isn’t about “competing to be the most oppressed.” In fact, one of the main points intersectional theorists try to get across is that oppression isn’t additive; you don’t experience proportionately more oppression by the more oppressed groups you belong to. Intersectionality tells us it’s more complicated than that. No two people have the same experiences of oppression, because their unique experiences intersect in unique ways.

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I discovered this article in the middle of a twitter discussion where I had started with a controversial tweet: "Don't be worried about your lack of lived experience when you're thinking about oppression in the society. Your privilege puts you in a special space where you can think intersectional without being drawn to one particular oppression by your lived experience."

I was being pressed by Soumya Thomas on twitter to reconsider this tweet because as ST rightly said, the lack of lived experience makes it harder for people to understand both oppression and intersectionality. And that's when I dug this article up on google to prove some weird point I was making https://twitter.com/asdofindia/status/1400896879655743494

Anyhow, it was brought back to my memory when Savitri told on Saturday morning how understanding oppression through gender helped SD understand/relate with caste based oppression too - that without that lived experience it would have been hard - which is true.

So, I am going to note down several of my thoughts under this broad bucket:

- intersectionality at its heart is *not* about how many oppressed identities one has and assorting people based on that. At its heart intersectionality is about how each individual is unique and their interactions with the society cannot be understood as a sum of the average expectations of each identity they possess. In other words, intersectionality is sometimes the exact opposite of how intersectionality is described.

- Intersectionality is closely related to the complexity of real world.

- Intersectionality allows someone like me (who is privileged in all kinds of dimensions you can think about) to still talk in a forum without being under the constant guilt of "this is not my space, I have to pass the mic". Because ultimately, intersectionality recognises that I'm not merely a sum of all my identities. I find this point closely related to what Sushrut Jadhav was trying to say.

- That in no way absolves people who grab the mic and talk out of turn. My experience of intersectional privilege makes me understand that there is a great deal of value in listening and letting the truth come out of lived experience (like Ullas was saying at the end - experience makes an impact that intellectual arguments cannot). There is also wisdom in realising that oppression is not something "our forefathers did", but something that we continue to do even today, even at Sevagram.

- intersectionality is not an excuse to criticize anti-caste movements for not being anti-capitalist enough. Intersectionality used as an excuse to criticize Dalit men of patriarchy is deeply problematic. There's a paper that talks more https://journals.library.brandeis.edu/index.php/caste/article/view/54

- intersectionality is an answer to identity politics. But intersectionality is a dangerous concept because it is very easily misunderstood and misused. Anything that's sufficiently complex is weaponized. Intersectionality is therefore avoided (and rightly so) by many.

- intersectionality has the potential to be liberating, because it opens up our work to understanding individuals in much more depth.

ASD

r.sr...@gmail.com

13 Mar 2023, 06:20:3013/03/2023
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To add to this, intersectionality can also act in unexpectedly oppressive ways.  In the Tsunduru Massacre of Dalits in 1991 women who belonged to the Reddy community (those who committed the atrocity) went on record defending the killings saying that the Dalits had harassed them.  The link provided mentions this as an objective fact, but as a member of one of the fact finding committees (Samata Sanghatana) I remember this assertion by the women.

So, if this assertion is seen on its own, it means that women intersecting with upper caste background can, in ways not expected simply by the fact of their being women, be oppressive through their upper caste background.

If the assertion was true, that indeed Dalit men did harass Reddy women, it means that men in a Dalit background were oppressive through their masculinity.

I am not saying the latter is true -- I haven't witnessed it.  Only that this too raises the possibility of intersectionality in a perverse way.

Of course, it can also be terribly oppressive, as for example in one of the MFC meetings, some participants described a sting operation in Bihar, where a tribal woman was forced to deliver on the ground even though labour room beds were available, and then her mother was forced to wash the placental remains off the floor because no one was willing to touch the "filth" of a tribal woman.

But I do like the intellectual courage of Akshay's assertion that intersectionality can be liberating -- a very useful opening and explains a lot of our own intersections.  However, perhaps Kimberle Crenshaw didn't quite envisage it in this (or any of these) ways. 

My two bits...

Srivats

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Vineeta Bal

13 Mar 2023, 07:23:1513/03/2023
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Thank you Akshay and Srivats, enjoying this thinking sloud on your part, adding two bits etc. It is thought provoking for me as I read it! 

Akshay S Dinesh

13 Mar 2023, 07:24:0413/03/2023
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Thanks Srivatsan for the examples on how intersectionality explains human beings that a mere 'caste' or 'gender' analysis cannot explain.

I wanted to clarify what I meant by weaponized intersectionality. Basically, it is also the answer to the question that Sharan and Falah had brought up - Why isn't mfc looking at intersectionality, gender, etc in this meeting?

Because sometimes we tend to jump to an 'intersectional' analysis to escape blame. To hide casteism, it is possible to make it about class/gender. It is often useful to sit down and really think about just one dimension of oppression - say caste - and exhaustively list down all the instances of how we're being casteist, what structures are embedding casteism, what are the nuanced ways caste operates, what debates are just caste debates in disguise, what is cultural capital, what is intergenerational trauma, etc, etc.

If I recall the arguments made at mid annual meet correctly, this was the exact reason to focus on caste - to avoid mixing it up with class.

So 'intersectionality' becomes the sweet tool for people to hijack discussion from hard topics and take it towards familiar and easy topics.

This is especially so in a discourse/debate where what matters is not how people understand and interpret concepts, but rather how the 'original' thinkers meant the word to be. Be it 'evidence based medicine', be it 'intersectionality', no Cochrane or Crenshaw can claim exclusive right on the interpretation of these words. But 'scholars' often force 'naive' participants out of the debates by citing past scholarship in ways that prevent those who haven't read all of that from raising counter arguments.

Examples of how this could be considered playing out in mfc meeting was
- when talking about trans identity, talking about Kinnar Akhada or about oppression within trans groups.
- when talking about Dalit assertion, talking about capitalism and reverse oppression.

These are (perhaps debatable) examples of ways where the focus is hijacked by arguments that sound scholarly, nuanced, intelligent, and extremely advanced but are rather quite the opposite of all that.

ASD


chinusrinivasan.x

13 Mar 2023, 07:41:2113/03/2023
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At the risk of simplifying, isn't all perception and experience intersectional? Only we don't wish it to be for the sake of sanity in day to day life.

Chinu

r.sr...@gmail.com

13 Mar 2023, 08:05:2313/03/2023
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Hi Chinu,

Good to hear your review of the meet.  My loss that I didn't make it.  Next time for sure.

The problem with concepts is that they are fragile and always delicate structures to hold together something seen from a particular point of view.  That is why after I provided some examples in my post, I added a caveat "perhaps Crenshaw didn't envisage it in these ways".  The moment I widened it, as did Akshay and you too, its utility falls rapidly and what it enabled us to see vanishes.  The value of a concept like intersectionality is the view it opens out and the observation it makes possible.  But, perhaps even before we made our interventions, Crenshaw's naming it and freezing the term as a permanent concept may have been an error too.

I guess the issue is to see the wider range of operation that the concept can describe,also to return to the more  focused observation to gain its insight, but with the insight into its broader shape.

Srivats

r.sr...@gmail.com

13 Mar 2023, 08:07:1313/03/2023
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This  particular post of mine (preceding) is much more a guardrail against my own generalization of very specific concepts, which I have been doing often of late.

Akshay S Dinesh

13 Mar 2023, 08:57:1013/03/2023
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If you want to guardrail KC's version of intersectionality you're welcome to quote KC and demonstrate how KC's explanation contradicts my (or your) understanding. In my opinion, there is no contradiction. But I'm happy to (and thrilled to) learn where exactly we are projecting our desires and opinions over KC.

As for whether Chinu's framing makes it useless, I don't think so. Chinu is correct in saying that we choose to ignore the whole scope of intersectionality most of the time because it is physiologically impossible for our brains. But being explicit about what we're doing - that we're dropping the complexity for simplifying analysis - protects us from reaching wrong conclusions. 

Also, in my experience, the more we think through complexity the easier it becomes. The more we practice thinking intersectionally, the quicker our brain becomes in identifying those patterns. It is not so difficult that we must run away from it to remain 'sane'. We just have to acknowledge our limitations all the time.

The more difficult question is whether we avoid intersectionality to be able to take action - whether intersectionality makes it difficult to choose any one action over the other.

I've written about that in https://blog.learnlearn.in/2022/03/finding-direction-when-being-pragmatic.html where I argue that the physiological limitations of our conscious mind doesn't exactly apply to our "gut sense".

ASD

r.sr...@gmail.com

13 Mar 2023, 09:01:0513/03/2023
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I'll respectfully decline.  I read Crenshaw too long ago to engage with her now.

anant.phadke

13 Mar 2023, 16:22:1213/03/2023
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Dear all,

            I am sorry that I could not participate in the MFC meet, an opportunity to interact with likeminded people from a range of backgrounds and to learn from these interactions, to build solidarity.  This post-meet discussion about an aspect of social oppression/exploitation (intersectionality ) is quite interesting.

            In this welcome discussion on the complexity of caste/gender/class oppression and exploitation, I would like to point out that there is one more dimension of this complexity and that is – the historical specificities and the contradictions of the oppression/exploitation.  The complexity of caste/gender/class oppression was also there 300 years back and in the history before it, throughout  feudalism; it continues today albeit in a different form. There is both commonality and break in the situation, say 400 years and now. Both need to be taken into account and the reasons for both.  Secondly the social system has not been a static system. It has contradictory tendencies because of which things don’t remain the same; things move forward. These contradictions need to be grasped because these  show the way forward. We want to understand the complexity of caste/gender/class oppression not for it’s own sake but to move forward, to throw away the yoke of this centuries old system of complexity of caste/gender/class oppression.  

            What are these contradictions, for example, in today's patriarchy? Capitalism has on the one hand has accentuated women’s exploitation and oppression -  There is more intense exploitation of their labour leading to longer, more arduous working schedule in degrading jobs. Their bodies have  increasingly become targets of the market through advertisements, porn-industry, generalized prostitution and in health care, objects of unnecessary medical interventions. In India this is truer for women in lower castes, especially dalit castes. But at the same time in contrast to feudalism women have got educated, have acquired proficiency in all kinds of modern jobs, roles, and have tested equality with men. The mystery surrounding menstruation, reproductive functions and their disorders etc has been left behind and contraception has expanded women’s choices regarding begetting children. All these have led to the call for women’s liberation. This was not possible in feudalism. Capitalism and the women’s movement in it have made women’s liberation a realistic possibility. Similarly feudal caste system has been transformed into capitalist caste system because of which now it is possible to transcend it only as part of  transcending the whole of the oppressive/exploitative system. Such transformation was not possible 400 years back.  All this is elementary. But when we discuss the intolerable and very complex reality of life of caste/gender/class oppression today, I think this needs to be kept in mind because it gives us hope that howsoever powerful and pervasive the oppressive system may be, it has it’s own contradictions which show us the way towards transcending the existing system.  Thus while going through the finer aspects of’ inter-sectionality  of caste/gender/class oppression at the level of individual experiences, we need to take care that we also need to discuss what makes it possible for the majority of the oppressed, exploited people to come together and seek overall transformation.   

      The liberal democratic ideology told us that patriarchy, casteism would wither away with modernization, progress, enlightment, democratization etc. In a way the traditional Marxism also argued that this change will happen due to thoroughgoing   “democratic ” revolution and certainly with Soviet type of Socialist Revolution or Chinese type “New Democratic Revolution '' in which the yoke of these old fashioned feudal vestiges will be thrown away. But apart from other lessons, the 21st century experience of these and other attempts have told us that patriarchal, racists, casteist relations have not only been at the cultural-social level, but they have been deeply entrenched in the socio-economic structure; have been part of the capitalist development, socio-economic structure. Thus mere cultural revolution is not enough to overcome these oppressive/exploitative relations but caste/gender/race relations must be overcome in all walks of life along with class relations through a thoroughgoing revolution. It is not possible that first capitalism will be overturned and then casteism, patriarchy, racism because of all of the oppressive/exploitative relations are interwoven together.

            Apologies for this longish mail.

Anant   




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sathya mfc

13 Mar 2023, 19:18:4413/03/2023
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Dear all, 
on a simpler note: 
I quote from a chapter I published in a book last year: ( https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/978-3-030-82654-3_8 )
the full book is open access. 
the problem with Crenshaw's framing is that the intersectional 'axes' are unweighted. 
Sathya

"I discovered feminism by being part of the autonomous women’s movement in IndiaFootnote6 and together with others spearheaded some of the important campaigns in reproductive health rights.Footnote7 I learned to listen to the wisdom of the “have-nots” as they negotiated their lives against unimaginable odds,Footnote8 and in the process I learned social theory from them. For instance, in a training programme for women village development workers in Uttar Pradesh, India, during a discussion on gender equality, a young womanFootnote9 challenged me:

Behanji  (sister) when you talk of equality, are you talking of equality with my husband who is a landless labourer, or of equality with my landlord who owns 60 acres of land, or of equality with you who earns about fifty times my wages? (Sathyamala, 1995: 15)

It was when I began to read theory after joining the Ph.D. programme, that I learned that the multiple, multi-layered inequalities had been conceptualized as intersectionality by Crenshaw (1989).Footnote10 Without any formal grounding in the social sciences, coming from a country where inequalities of every sort are present in every walk of life, and are clearly visible to the naked eye, I had positioned myself as a Marxist-feminist,Footnote11 conscious of other intersecting inequalities due to caste and religious identities."


sathya mfc

14 Mar 2023, 15:30:2914/03/2023
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More on intersectionality 
I have been reading up on the Nalanda Academy started by Anoop Kumar. Anoop Kumar's talk during the annual meet was one of the most empowering one that I have had the privilege to hear in recent times. The selection criteria of his academy is not based on caste alone. Does it mean that they are 'diluting' the caste question? No. This to me means that they are practicing intersectionality responding to the 'combined' marginalization due to caste, gender and class, the position of the precarious population in India.
the full interview is worth reading, but much of it is what he said during his talk in the meet. 
Sathya 

"When I started Nalanda, I made it very sure that our work should be able to reach every caste, community which is marginalised in the society. So I choose my students very carefully. I have 3 – 4 criteria of choosing them. Students should be from non-English medium backgrounds. They should be from the rural areas. Half of the seats are reserved for the women students. If the students come from non-majority scheduled castes or from scheduled tribes, nomadic tribes or most backward castes, I give them the first preference. The reason is that the other castes, communities should also feel that they are part of our movement. Unless and until our movement reaches out to them, we should not expect that everybody will come and join us" (The Nalanda Story: In Conversation with Anoop Kumar 2020)

Akshay S Dinesh

15 Mar 2023, 11:37:3915/03/2023
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Sathya, there's no doubt that action in the complex real world needs a framework as close to reality as intersectionality. I didn't understand what you meant by giving weights to axes. I'm suspecting that you're going back to the basic version of intersectionality where the axes are all "weighed" equally and then added together/combined together to count and sort people.

In the advanced version of intersectionality (whether that's same as what KC wrote about or whether it is a conceptualization by anonymous authors like the one I quoted), there's no way to compare any three individuals no matter what gender, caste, class, etc they come from. Assigning weight to axes will not help either because the whole question of how do you decide how much weight to give to class, how much weight to give to caste, etc comes up. It is the understanding that everyone faces everything differently and there's no way to compare experiences and say "my oppression is greater than your oppression" that intersectionality entails.

On the other hand, the question of dilution by intersectionality comes up because the answer of "What is mfc?" is "a space for discussion and learning" for many people. If mfc is not a space for action, rather is a space for discussion and learning, then it is not unimaginable that mfc can focus on producing high quality, excellent analysis of various sorts. mfc can indeed produce high quality analysis on the intersectional lens. But for such an analysis to be complete, mfc must be able to look at each dimension in the intersectional analysis at a very high depth and quality. If mfc has not been able to discuss intergenerational trauma or cultural capital in a meet dedicated to caste, what does that speak about the strength of mfc's analysis on caste dimension? How can an intersectional analysis be complete without a complete understanding of each dimensions that intersect?

Please elaborate on weighted axes.

ASD

r.sr...@gmail.com

16 Mar 2023, 16:22:1916/03/2023
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Thanks Anant for this extremely thoughtful and though provoking rejoinder.

Best
Srivats

anant.phadke

16 Mar 2023, 16:52:5816/03/2023
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            Dear all,

            When it is said that MFC should do this or do that it may please be kept in mind that there is no organizational framework in MFC beyond the executive committee and the editorial committee. There is no MFC position on most issues because that would imply a lot of discussions to arrive at a consensus position within a reasonable time frame. Taking any position on paper has no value unless there is some organizational mechanism and some commitment by members to do any follow up. Jan Swasthya Abhiyan, which was formed in the year 2000 is meant to be a network for action on health issues and MFC is one of the National Organizations which is part of this mega network. Unfortunately even JSA has not been very active even during covid-19 epidemic.

            When views are expressed about what MFC should do, the positive thing is that different individuals are interested in MFC as an organisation being more active. However at the same time one should think of what national level collective action MFC has done during the last 50 years beyond organising annual meets and running the bulletin and what happened when attempts were made go beyond this. This could be done only half a dozen times and it was --- MFC members from different parts of India came together at a certain place and did some collective action. Nothing beyond this was done as a national level effort. At every such time it was realized that it was very difficult for MFC members to go beyond this in collective action. Voluntary energy and time and coordination was not possible very often at the national level often and doing things on a sustained basis has not been possible for MFC because of a variety of reasons. One important factor has been - a lot of diversity in the ideological perspective of leading individuals in MFC. Collective action on an agreed minimum program can be done despite wide ranging perspectives. But to achieve this with a lot of discussion and debate about everything involves far more time and energy than individual MFC members were ready to spare for MFC.

            This point about MFC being a thought current was articulated consistently, I think by Ravi Narayan, who had tried a lot to foster a number of things. There was a broad consensus around this formulation and this was not out of any dogma but through a simple realisation of reality of MFC. As I communicated in earlier mail, different Cells were formed to have a focussed discussion and action on specific aspects. I had mentioned the Primary Health Care cell, the Rational Drug policy cell, the Women and Health cell, as examples. These Cells did not function for a long time.

            In my view, younger MFC members can come together to reactivate these Cells or form any other Cell for focussed discussion and action on any health issue. The only care to be taken would be to broadly follow the overall MFC ethos of dialogue, discussion, debate.
           Importance and role of MFC has been as a unique National forum for health activists which has provided a platform for the last 50 years (with zero institutional funding) for discussions on many relevant health issues and in this discussions offers space for grass root experiences from different parts of India, for dialogue and debate amongst different pro-people activists which are informed by different theoretical analyses but whose democratic and humanist concerns overwhelm everything else and need for mutual solidarity is not lost sight of. There have also been fights, sharp and sometimes sharp, even bitter debates and some personal clashes leading to mutual distancing. Sometimes the discussion does not seem to take things forward or gets stuck up with distractions etc etc. However on the whole the discussions and the meetings are enriching and moreover, many health activist remain in touch with each other through MFC; they exchange ideas and experience and many times work together for some time on some specific issues without the banner of MFC but they are together because of the MFC"s humanist ethos.

            The most important feature of MFC meetings is the informality and the conscious effort to keep presentations to the minimum and to keep half the time reserved for open ended discussion on the topic. I do not know of any other non funded voluntary forum in India which has been doing this consistently over such a long period.
            Overall MFC has played a very limited but nevertheless an important role in the People's health Movement in India. People like me in the older generation would be very happy to see younger leadership taking this forward by making MFC more active on the discussion front as well as on the front of collective action. To begin with, collective effort may be put in to restart the online bulletin which was published this month after a gap of 3 years!

 

TY

SY

Anant

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/a/AGNmyxYUc7WrJ31_fAuE70Q6aVrUDznF-I9C_0kWud3G=s40-p

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Akshay S Dinesh

17 Mar 2023, 07:56:2517/03/2023
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Anant,
You're right that mfc's organizational structure makes it difficult for taking decisions and hence action (even online action). I've arrived at this insight through my own analysis and will write a blog post and share soon.

In the meet, Savitri had urged people to start mfc clubs in colleges and institutions as a concrete action step. This is in line with the origin of mfc as a medico friend circle. Anand Zachariah is also promoting the clubs. The only condition is that whoever is starting the club should have attended at least one mfc meeting (to ensure the ethos are preserved, like you said).

I don't know why you've posted this reply in this thread rather than the one on "what is mfc?". I am very much on-board with the idea that mfc is not for coordinated action, and what I meant by mfc producing analyses in the last paragraph is that the meeting which is meant to encourage discussion, learning, etc could have gone to depths of the caste dimension. After all, at its depths all kinds of discrimination has common elements.

Whatever little we do, there's value in doing those well. On the other hand, I'm a bit of a perfectionist and sometimes will keep asking for impossibly higher standards. 

So the question is to answer objectively whether we have utilized the meet well. One way could be to do a survey of the participants, which was indeed done. And many points had come out. I wish I could write them all down.

In either case (whether the format of the meet could have allowed for better understanding of caste or not), it is useful to continue the discussion and learning on email. But it has to start from an acknowledgement that there is a lot more to discuss and learn.

When it comes to caste, I would say the topics we could still discuss are:
- accumulating advantages (on how caste capital accumulates and how the rich becomes richer)
- tyranny of merit (on how the academic selection systems are meaningless)
- caste-lessness (the politics of I have no caste and the mechanism of privilege ignorance)
- savarna saviour complex, savarna superiority complex (where the "solutions" have to come from savarnas)
- limiting people to their identities (when standup comedy is performed by people from xxx background, that becomes xxx stand-up)
- caste in language (caste signifiers, last names, the terminology we use to refer to people from oppressed castes)
- appropriation (how speaking on behalf of others maybe perilous)
- safe space (the whole idea of discussing topics without ensuring safety)
- diversity (discussion on how representation can only be a process and not an act)


Many of these would have already been discussed in different ways in the meeting, but the objective assessment should include whether an average participant is conscious of the topic and has "learnt" something.

Many learnings have indeed happened at the meeting. But being able to be 60% satisfied and being self-critical can be very helpful.

ASD

r.sr...@gmail.com

17 Mar 2023, 08:55:3317/03/2023
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Regarding the bulletin.  I'd be happy to assist the editorial team in any of these ways if needed (organizing decisions for themes, requesting some papers, follow up, and also making the bulletin online).  Do let me know.

All the best
Srivats

r.sr...@gmail.com

17 Mar 2023, 08:56:1617/03/2023
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PS:  also copyediting!
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